Friday, October 22, 2010

Was Margaret's Dream Pre-Trib? It was NOT!
Dear Reader, please pray for God's Holy Spirit to be your only Guide as we continue! Thank you SO much! Margaret MacDonald has gotten massive criticism from Pre-Trib Rapture promoters and from Post-Trib Rapture promoters! Perhaps there are some Authors or Websites that do not criticize her, but, so far, we have found none. Could it be that Pre-Trib and Post Trib-Trib are both wrong for criticizing her?  We've not researched everything about Margaret's life story, but if the recorded dream she had is the only documentation available, her dream/vision completely agrees with Scripture! And, it's very valuable to those of us who want to prepare for Christ's return! She was only 15 when she had the dream, and the wisdom she demonstrated was far beyond her years. We challenge all of our Readers to find a single phrase in her vision that hints that the Church will be raptured to Heaven before the Tribulation, or a hint of a dual coming of Jesus. Following is the entire dream as she records it. We've highlight certain points and will comment on these afterwards:


Margaret's Dream
"It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just 'no God.' I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear. Now look out for the sign of the Son of Man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, Oh, it is not known what the sign of the Son of Man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified Man, even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in His people. Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, 'Now is the Kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.' 'But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.' This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for His day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. 'Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - He is the light - 'tis only those that are alive in Him that will be caught up to meet Him in the air. I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet Him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the Church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold. I often said, Oh the glorious inbreaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the Bride adorned for her Husband; and Oh what a holy, holy Bride she must be, to be prepared for such a glorious Bridegroom. I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be. I felt as Elijah, surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the Spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - but the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold.

I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - for it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of God's truth, and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be poured out on the Church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he - when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will be outward trial too, but 'tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within -be clay in the hands of the potter -submit to be filled, filled with God. This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb. I saw it to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people, was their turning from Jesus, who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enters in he shall find pasture. They were bypassing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God.

When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God's holiness, and a ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross. I saw that night, and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - His Holy Holy image seen in His people - just the Bride made comely by his comeliness put upon her. This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his Bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry.

Amen and Amen Even so come Lord Jesus." _______________________________________________________________
Dear Reader, did you detect anything indicating a Pre-Trib Rapture? Is there even a hint of any Pre-Trib Doctrine, including Antichrist not working till the Church is taken out of the earth? You didn't! Clearly she said the Church would go through the Tribulation here on earth, and face Anti-Christ directly! We challenge our Readers to identify a single phrase that supports Pre-Trib on any debated doctrine. To show this to be reality of Margaret's vision, let's go through the highlights we have marked.  We'll see that she was actually ahead of her time on everything:

"Awful State of the land"
This sounds more like today than 1830! She wrote that it was the, "blindness and infatuation of the people" that made it such. This is an exact description for today!

"Cry of Liberty = Hiss of the Serpent"
Margaret saw that the, "cry of Liberty" was actually the, "hiss of the serpent!" This is EXACTLY the same as today's proclamation that, "Grace gives us Liberty to disregard God's Law!" This almost universal proclamation from modern Christianity is absolutely the "Hiss of Satan." It is probably Satan's most successful Doctrine of Demons!
Pre-Trib says, "Only 'Grace Age' Christians Will Be the Bride of Christ"

When Margaret wrote that the, "Cry of Liberty" is the "Hiss of the Serpent," she quoted EXACTLY Pre-Trib's teaching that, "Only Grace Dispensation Christians Will be in the Bride of Christ!" The Serpent (Satan) told Eve that she and Adam would be rewarded by becoming, "As Gods" if they disobeyed God. Pre-Trib says the Bride of Christ will ONLY come from people living during what they call "The Grace Dispensation." In other words, Pre-Trib says that the ONLY created beings qualified to occupy the highest position in God's Universe, the Bride of Christ, will come from the ONLY time period REQUIRING DISOBEDIENCE to God's Law! Our Website, "The REAL Bride of Christ" explains this further. According to Margaret's Vision, however, the Bride of Christ will be made up of only those who are obedient to God! The Bible agrees entirely with Margaret, and totally disagrees with Pre-Trib!

"Antichrist and the Church"
Margaret wrote, "The trial of the Church is Antichrist!" This alone would cause any Pre-Trib teacher to completely oppose and condemn her Dream. In fact, Pre-Trib Promoters say this is, "Proof Positive" that she DID NOT receive the Dream from God! Pre-Trib says the Church will be Raptured before Antichrist is allowed to do his work. Pre-Trib says the Church will NEVER encounter Antichrist in any way whatsoever! Margaret says the Church will defeat Antichrist! According to the Bible, Margaret is correct! Her Dream is pretty much word for word what the Bible says! See "The Great Tribulation" for more information on this.

"Fit us to enter Marriage Supper of the Lamb"
Pre-Trib says the Church, the Bride of Christ, goes into the Marriage Supper, before Antichrist or the Tribulation. Margaret's Dream says that defeating Antichrist Fits the Church to be the Bride! See our Blogsite The Real Bride of Christ. So far, her Dream is totally opposed to Pre-Trib!

"Oh What a Holy Holy Bride She Must Be"
What a contrast this is from Pre-Trib's teaching that only, "Grace Dispensation" people will be allowed to be the Bride of Christ!! If we look in the Pre-Trib Bible Study Helps and the Pre-Trib College and University Textbooks, we see clearly spelled out that, according to Dispensational teaching, of the 7 so-called Dispensations, only one Dispensation specifically demands that obedience to God's 10 Commandments must be set aside and be replaced by "Grace!" Small wonder that Pre-Trib emphatically denies any connection to Margaret's Dream. Margaret is right! The Bride/Church will be Holy! She will NOT be claiming "Grace frees her to disregard God's 10 Commandments." In John's Vision, while he was writing Revelation, he saw, "The Dragon (Satan) was wroth with the Woman (the Bride/the Church), and went to make war with the Remnant of her seed (Church in the Last-Days) which Keep the Commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus" (Rev.12:17)! We have a choice! We can believe John, who appears to say the same as Margaret, or we can believe something else! We want to be kind, but the choice is all too clear. The popular "something else" doesn't seem to match the Bible!

"Great Conformity to Jesus" "His Holy Holy Image Seen in His People"
This puts Margaret's Dream on a whole higher level and is the most profound part of her Dream! It also puts her at complete odds with Pre-Trib! Satan and his Demons HATE anything and everything that stresses the possibility of Christ's people conforming to Christ's Image!!! They prefer the popular notion that "Grace" demands Christ's people disobey Christ's Commandments! Satan knows that when Christ's CHURCH truly "CONFORMS to His Holy Holy Image" the Church will graphically prove him WRONG!! Satan has inspired hundreds of thousands of silver-tongued preachers to declare this can NEVER happen! They say humans are just too sinful and too depraved to "Conform to the Image of Jesus." But Jesus says the opposite!! He said, "To him that OVERCOMETH will I grant to sit with Me on My Throne, just as I OVERCAME and am set down with My Father on His throne" (Rev.3:21)! This is what Jesus is waiting for His Church to do! Conforming to Christ's Image is the theme of the entire Bible!! When all the world sees the Character of Jesus reproduced in His People, then the end will come and He will come and claim His Bride! (See Matt.24:14 ) See Why Jesus Waits and The New Covenant Power to Reflect Jesus' Character

"Purging and Purifying Real Members"
Margaret saw, "It [the Tribulation and Antichrist] will be for the purging and purifying of the REAL members of the Body of Christ!" We invite the reader to carefully go back and look at the Paragraph in Margaret's Dream that we have highlighted in Red. It pretty much sums up what God's Church will see during the Tribulation. Then take a moment to review all of the highlighted parts in their context. See The Purpose of the Great Tribulation.

This Author has spent pretty much his whole life studying Bible Prophecy, and can see NOTHING in Margaret's dream that does not absolutely agree with what the Bible says about END TIME EVENTS. Particularly what she saw concerning, "Overcoming," and "Purifying and Purging God's Church."

Thank you SO much, Dear Reader, for your time. Be sure to visit our other Websites for more information about End-Time Prophecies. Let's Pray for God's Spirit as we prepare to meet Him!

Your Brother In Christ
 Walter C. Martin Jr.
PS - Following is comment/response from one of our Readers. After we discuss it, we have a general overview of the popular view of how the Pre-Trib Rapture view began. As time passes we continually uncover Websites designed by Pre-Trib promoters trying to produce documentations of Pre-Trib being taught before 1930. Some have introduced documentation from Christian believers as far back as 146 AD. But in every case we've investigated, there is nothing indicating a dual Coming of Jesus. Some of the modern promoters of Pre-Trib have sited comments from these early Church leaders in which there is clearly indications of God's protections of protection during the Tribulation, but not the slightest hint of being taken to Heaven before the Tribulation.


Follow up: We've gotten a comment from a Reader referring us to other Internet sources in which there appears to be evidence that certain founders of Pre-Trib Dispensationalists did in fact get their views from Margaret. It is a heated debate between both sides, Pre-Trib totally denying connection, and opponents claiming there was an absolute connection. Some say Margaret was endorsing a "Partial Church Rapture." Based on the wording of her dream, this is certainly not clearly evident. This Author will do more research into Margaret's Pastor, Edward Erving. From everyone's Websites, it seems he and some of his parishioners, possibly including Margaret, began certain practices that were unacceptable to conventional Christianity.

In this Blogsite we looked at 2 points from Margaret's Dream. First, but not foremost, is the fact that the wording in her Dream refutes Pre-Trib. Second, and foremost, is what she says concerning how the Tribulation, including Antichrist, would "Purify the Church." In every Website this Author has developed, there is a central theme. That theme is the following: "The Church is Earth's last best hope for the human race! Some day, when the Church (actually it will be a very small 'Remnant' within the Church) will display 'Great Conformity to the Holy Image of Jesus,' Jesus will Come! In other words, the Church will fulfill the Gospel Commission from Jesus to, 'Preach this Gospel of the Kingdom to all the world, FOR A WITNESS TO ALL NATIONS, and then shall the end come'  (Matt.24:14)! When the World, and the Universe, witnesses the Character of Jesus TRULY reflected through His CHURCH, then, and ONLY then, Jesus will come and take His Church, His Bride, to Heaven. They will have accomplished the REAL purpose for which Jesus designed them. To a large degree, instead of reflecting the Image of Christ, a large portion of the Church is claiming that Grace frees them from obedience to Jesus, and thus frees them from the Gospel Commission given us by Jesus. When we take this notion that Grace Frees us to Disobey, we then are reflecting the image of the Enemy of our Souls!"

The above also appears to be the central theme in Margaret MacDonald's Dream. There seems to be much evidence that some of those reproducing Margaret's Dream omitted certain phrases that point out how the Church will reflect the image of Jesus.

We sincerely appreciate the Readers comments, and we will continue researching the material recommended. Thanks so much and may God be with us all as we prepare for Jesus' Soon Coming!


Dispensationalism's Beginnings - Who Started It?
 Of course those who promote the Pre-Tribulation Rapture claim that it was taught by Jesus, Paul, and the Disciples. But most Pre-Trib Promoters admit that the system of Dispensationalism as it is known today had it's beginnings around 1830 with John Nelson Darby. There are some reports that it all started with Margaret MacDonald who had a dream of Jesus Coming and the activities leading up to it. Many opponents of Pre-Trib cast a disparaging view of MacDonald, some even say she had a demon. We suggest that most of her critics have not truly studied her dream. The only recording of her dream, or vision, indicates nothing resembling a Rapture. She saw the Church dealing with Antichrist! That's not Pre-Trib! She saw overcoming Antichrist as a refining process for the Church. Nothing in her dream was about a 2-phase Second Coming as taught by Pre-Trib. This Author will continue researching Margaret's Dream, but at this point, it appears the Dream/Vision is very Biblical. The strongest point in the Dream is the "Preparation" the Church must do in order to be ready for Jesus to Come!! The need for preparation for the Tribulation is COMPLETELY denied by Pre-Trib. They say, "There's no need for the Church to prepare, because it will be GONE, RAPTURED, before the Tribulation and Antichrist." Margaret's Dream/Vision says exactly the opposite!! When she wrote out her Dream, she stressed over and again the need for the Church to reflect the Character of Jesus! This Author has put together about 60 Websites and this "Need for the Church to Prepare for the Tribulation"  is the theme of each Site! So, we must say without apology that there is NOTHING in Margaret's Dream that we find non-Biblical.

John Nelson Darby
We give a very brief outline of Darby here. We suggest doing a Web Search for those who want more detail. Darby was a minister in England in the early to mid 1800s. The stories about him hearing Margaret MacDonald tell of her dream are not entirely clear and most Pre-Trib Promoters totally deny Nelson and McDonald ever meeting. Some Pre-Tribbers even claim there's documentation of Darby preaching about a Pre-Tribulation Rapture 2 years before Margaret's Dream. We'll leave that to the debaters. We will say, however, that if Margaret did share her Dream and claim it was a Vision from God, Darby certainly did NOT use it as a basis for his version of Jesus Second Coming. Margaret saw NO Pre-Antichrist or -Tribulation Rapture. According to her dream, God would use the Tribulation to purify the Church and the Church would face down Antichrist and "OVERCOME" him. She saw that it would be those who withstood the trials of the Tribulation who would become the BRIDE of CHRIST. Darby totally disagreed with all of this! So much for Margaret MacDonald being one of the founders of Dispensationalism. We invite you to take a look at our Website about Margaret McDonald. In it we show the recorded Dream she had, and show that the Dream might possibly have been a real Vision from God.

Cyrus Ingerson Scofield
Scofield and Darby were both Lawyers. We'll let the reader decide whether this is good or bad. Scofield was born in 1843. It wasn't until he was in his 40s that he took any serious interest in religious matters. He even served time in prison for forgery. Because of his problem with alcohol, he abandoned his wife and wake up call. He became converted and began pastoring several churches. His real passion, however, was his keen interest in a struggling End-Times Bible interpretation called, Dispensationalism. He had a passion for it and set about to see that all Christianity had exposure to it. In 1909 his first Scofield Study Bible was published. It was an instant success and is still, to this day, the standard for Pre-Tribulation Dispensationalism. The Scofield Bible is probably the key reason that Pre-Trib Dispensationalism has become the fastest growing End-Time view within Christianity. There are many good Ministers that have contributed, but the 2 principle promoters of Pre-Trib are Darby and Scofield. Hal Lindsey's book, "The Late Great Planet Earth" gave a huge boost to Pre-Trib. Within the past 20+ years, the series of books, LEFT BEHIND have sold millions of copies, thus contributing greatly to the success of Pre-Trib.
daughters. Finally in 1883 his wife divorced him. This may have been his

This Author's Personal Scofield Study Bible
For over 30 Years the New Scofield Study Bible has been this Author's personal Bible. After the first cover was completely worn out, we had it re-bound in high grade leather. Although I disagree with the Dispensational Pre-Tribulation view, the Scofield Study Notes are helpful when making an intensive study into Dispensationalism. Most of my closest friends for the past 30 years have been Dispensationalists. These Friends have been helpful to me in my research.

John F Walvoord
One of my highest privileges was an opportunity to attend a Bible Conference in which John F. Walvoord was a key speaker. I personally meet with him and he was a True Gentleman as well as a True Scholar. He was one of the Editors of the New Scofield Study Bible. I had hoped to have him go over my manuscripts when I finished my Book, but he has passed away.
Again, many good and sincere Ministers and Teachers endorse the Dispensational Pre-Tribulation View. We believe, however, that the Bible teaches a One-Phase Second Coming of Jesus, at which time He will take ALL of His People to Heaven to the "Place He Prepared for them" (Jn.14:1-3). When we say "ALL" we mean Old Testament Saints, New Testament Saints, and Tribulation Saints! The Bible says that at the end of 1000 years, Jesus will Create a New Heaven and a New Earth (Rev.21:1; 2Pet.3:13; Isa.65:17; Isa.66:22), thus, if Jesus were to set up a Millennial Kingdom here on this Earth, it would end and be burned up at the End of the 1000 years (Rev.20:14-15; 2Pet.3:7,10; Mal.4:1). Christ's Kingdom is an Everlasting Kingdom, so when Jesus takes His People to Heaven, those Homes He Gives them are Everlasting. John said that at the end of the 1000 years Jesus will bring His People, His Bride, back to earth inside New Jerusalem (Rev.21:2). It is at this time that Old Earth is purified with fire and Jesus creates the New Earth. New Jerusalem will then be located in the New Earth Forever and Ever. Thus it is that Christ's Kingdom is EVERLASTING, un-interrupted. It simple changes location after 1000 years.

Only Scenario Including ALL Scripture
As we show in the Blogsites listed below, we need not complicate our interpretations of Prophecies of End-Time Events and the Millennium. The version of End-Time Events we present throughout our Websites is very simple and the ONLY interpretation that does not Revise, Reverse, or Ignore a SINGLE SCRIPTURE. The Pre-Trib Dispensational view, however,... well, just check any of our Websites.

Thanks, Dear Reader, for your time. We ask that, before you read any of our material, please take a moment to ask for God's Spirit to guide you as you seek the Truth about end times. God has promised to give us the same Spirit that inspired John, Paul, Peter, Isaiah, and all of the Bible's Prophets to prophesy about the End-Times.

Your Brother in Christ
Walter C. Martin Jr.

Check Our Other Blogsites:

Pre-Tribulation Rapture

Post-Tribulation Second Coming of Jesus

Will We Eat Pigs During the Millennium?

Planet Earth WILL be Destroyed After the 1000 Years!
New Jerusalem - How BIG is It?
Great White Throne Judgment Seat - When and Where
Christ's Kingdom - Millennial or EVERLASTING?

Hell Fire
Is God Torturing People Now
Did Jesus Suffer ALL of Your Hell?
The Rich Man and Lazarus?
The Dead - Dead or Alive - What is Death?
Did Jesus Die YOUR Death for You?
Will Satan Ever Die - Bible Says "YES!"
Testing Our Doctrine About Death
The Dead Stand Before Great White Throne Judgment Seat

The Gnostics Attack the Sabbath
Were Gnostics Really Christian?
Were Gnostics Satan's Implants into the Church?
Is Gnosticism Alive and Well in Today's Churches
Church is Israel - Israel is Church
Is the Church Israel and Israel the Church?
Is the Bride of Jesus the 144 Thousand?
Did Jesus Offer the Jews a Millennial Kingdom in His Ministry?
Will New Jerusalem Sit in Israel? How Big is It?
Christ's REAL EVERLASTING Kingdom is for ALL Believers!

The Sabbath
Is it a Sin to Observe the Sabbath?
Is There a Connection Between the Rapture and the Sabbath?
Will the Sabbath Be Observed By God's People During the Tribulation?
Who REALLY Changed the Sabbath in Early Christianity?
Un-Answered and Un-Answerable Sabbath Questions For Popular Preachers
How to Test Your Doctrine Concerning the Sabbath

Marriage in Heaven - Millennial Kingdom?
Strange Animal/Demons the Millennium?
Why Jesus Hasn't Come to Take Us To Heaven?
Teachers of Anomia (Law Annulling)
Good Ministers Teaching Against God's 10 Commandments?
Teaching of Anomia - The Reason Jesus Hasn't Come Yet?
Pre-Trib Rapture and Sabbath
Pre-Trib Rapture and the Sabbath?

Walter C. Martin Jr.
Everlasting Gospel Ministries

These are just a few of the questions we examine in our Websites.
Thank you, Dear Reader,  for checking them. Please feel free to give us your comments and feedback if you look at our Sites.  If you send us your questions or comments, we will try to answer and add your question to these Websites. We will Not give your name or E-Mail address to ANY ONE or ANY Church Group or Denomination! Nor will we send you ANY annoying E-Mails!! It is NOT our purpose to get you to withdraw from your present Church, but to invite you to present things you learn here to your Pastor and Friends.
Let's pray that God will continue sending His Holy Spirit to guide as we prepare for Jesus to come. Thank You!
Your Brother in Christ!
Walter C. Martin Jr